2007 ALL STAR

[PBAHoFer]

Well, with only 1 night of qualifying left @ each Center the following numbers are the cut:

Armadilla

Div 1: 673 (qualified 10: 40)
Div 2: 634 (qualified 8: 33)
Div 3: 630 (qualified 11: 45)

Mega Plex

Div 1: 710 (qualified 1)
Div 2: 629 (qualified 6: 27)
Div 3: 713 (qualified 1)

Division 3 is the women's division, and as you can see, has more entries than the men's... what's up fellas?

Will post final numbers as we tabulate them this weekend.

Remember, semi finals and finals are 1:00 PM December 8, 2007 @ Armadilla for 3 games, then down to Mega Plex for 3 games and double elimination bracket finals.

Will post details soon.

[MrPerfect]

PBA, Just an idea for the Division I bowlers for the All-Star Tourn. With just 10 qualifiers and possibly a few more by-ins to the Semi's.... would it be possible at each house that 3 pairs of lanes be set aside for this Division so we can move pairs each game. That way, it's more fair and no one can claim they got a worse or better pair in the draw, if we were to bowl all three games on one pair at each house, like I think we did last year.... It is common to move pairs in Scratch Tourns. were multiple games are bowled.

What's your thought?

[PBAHoFer]

It will depend on how many bowlers in all divisions bowl on Saturday.

We would also have to look at what we put in the rules, which I don't have access to at the moment.

If we have one group change lanes, we would have to have all groups change... which I am not opposed to the idea, just have to do the same for all divisions as it is certified under one set of rules with 3 divisions.

Also, with the time factor to consider and Holiday parties for many of us to attend, whatever is faster is fine with me...

Next year, I am thinking we should move this oturnament up a month, and run it in October, with the finals the week before Thanksgiving... that way we are done with long running qualifyiers and stuff before the Holidays...

[MrPerfect]

pbahofer said:

It will depend on how many bowlers in all divisions bowl on Saturday.

We would also have to look at what we put in the rules, which I don't have access to at the moment.

If we have one group change lanes, we would have to have all groups change... which I am not opposed to the idea, just have to do the same for all divisions as it is certified under one set of rules with 3 divisions.

Also, with the time factor to consider and Holiday parties for many of us to attend, whatever is faster is fine with me...

Next year, I am thinking we should move this oturnament up a month, and run it in October, with the finals the week before Thanksgiving... that way we are done with long running qualifyiers and stuff before the Holidays...

Ok, I understand... it was just a thought.

and I like your idea of moving this Tourn. up a month....

[MrPerfect]

But in my opinion... if the Assoc. wants to have prestige and fair play for their events and wants bowlers to turn out for them. They need to be run like the top tourns. are. You know as well as I do, that certain pairs are better scoring than other pairs. And to have one group of people bowl all three games on one pair can drastically make a difference in who makes the finals and who don't.

I don't think it's necessary to have all Divisions move lanes and we are not talking about that much more time anyways, if any at all. Even if we bowl all three games on the same pair, we can't proceed to the finals until the slowest pair finishes. If all bowlers in Div. I want to do it, regardless of the rules, then it should be done and regardless of what the other division do. I thought this was the bowlers Tournament....JMO....

[PBAHoFer]

mrperfect said:

But in my opinion... if the Assoc. wants to have prestige and fair play for their events and wants bowlers to turn out for them. They need to be run like the top tourns. are. You know as well as I do, that certain pairs are better scoring than other pairs. And to have one group of people bowl all three games on one pair can drastically make a difference in who makes the finals and who don't.

I don't think it's necessary to have all Divisions move lanes and we are not talking about that much more time anyways, if any at all. Even if we bowl all three games on the same pair, we can't proceed to the finals until the slowest pair finishes. If all bowlers in Div. I want to do it, regardless of the rules, then it should be done and regardless of what the other division do. I thought this was the bowlers Tournament....JMO....

I fully agree with your opinion on lane assignments having a bearing on who may or may not bowl well... I also understand moving lanes may well have the same adverse affect on someone... look at the TRIO... many commented on catching a pair muilitple times with random placement each game, so it's a 2 way street.

I also disagree with almost your entire 2nd paragraph.

This is a tournament provided by your Association for its members. It's not the bowler's tournament. It's also a certified tournament, with rules and finances preapproved by USBC. It's not some weekend house tournament which makes and amends rules and pay-offs on the fly based on entries.

Imagine going to State or nationals and requesting a change in procedure because it's supposed to be "for the bowlers"... it isn't going to happen there and it isn't going to happen locally.

The Tournament committee reviews procedure and rules annually and will take suggestions into account for future tournaments. Much like we did for the TRIO tournament in January which has been modified based on suggestions and results of the last tournament. Results of procedure, NOT bowling results.

[MrPerfect]

I can agree and understand your reply..... I guess I just meant it as something to consider for next year, if it can't be done this year... and Games and Series, even though lanes are changed each game are still recognized and sanctioned by USBC... if the Tourn. is sanctioned. 300's and 800's series are approved all the time in SASBA and everyone moves pairs every game. And the 800 series don't have to be the first three games..... They can be any 3 games shot back to back to back... but once a game is used in an 800 series it can't be used again in another 800 series if you have 4 or 5 games in a row that any 3 in a row can add up to over 800...

True on the lane assignments, but if there is a bad pair, at least everyone in Div. I has to bowl on it only once, and thus makes it fair for all....JMO... Adverse or not...

[PBAHoFer]

I don't think you are right... it's my understanding series are figured in blocks of 3.

1-3, 4-6 etc.

Games 3, 4, 5 or 2, 4, 5 cannot add up to a 800 for recognition.

We can verify in the rule bookm but, I know of many instances in multiple game tournaments where the games #'s were off and the 800 wasn't recognized.

Of course, SASBA could be violating the rules and phonying up the games numbers for USBC so they can give out awards.
That generation of bowler is all about getting rewards... that's why there is so much complsining about losing awards... from the old folks like all of us... that have always had multiple awards and plaques for years now...

[MrPerfect]

Not from what I've seen in many SASBA events..... now remember, they have to be back to back to back games, so your example of game 2,4,5 of coarse would not qualify

So, games, 2,3,4 can be but you can't use games 4,5,6 for a second 800 series. Because game 4 has been used already in another 800....

I've seen in 8 game and 9 game qualifying, any 3 games in a row can qualify for the 800 series. It don't have to be 1,2,3, then 4,5,6 or 7,8,9 if it's a 9 games of qualifying.

I'm only assuming that SASBA is not playing with which games they were, when reporting them. Normally the older than us people are more honest than the younger crowd in my opinion...

[PBAHoFer]

mrperfect said:

Not from what I've seen in many SASBA events..... now remember, they have to be back to back to back games, so your example of game 2,4,5 of coarse would not qualify

So, games, 2,3,4 can be but you can't use games 4,5,6 for a second 800 series. Because game 4 has been used already in another 800....

I've seen in 8 game and 9 game qualifying, any 3 games in a row can qualify for the 800 series. It don't have to be 1,2,3, then 4,5,6 or 7,8,9 if it's a 9 game of qualifying.

I'm only assuming that SASBA is not playing with which games they were, when reporting them. Normally the older than us people are more honest than the younger crowd in my opinion...

I'm going to check the rules...

[PBAHoFer]

pbahofer said:

mrperfect said:

Not from what I've seen in many SASBA events..... now remember, they have to be back to back to back games, so your example of game 2,4,5 of coarse would not qualify

So, games, 2,3,4 can be but you can't use games 4,5,6 for a second 800 series. Because game 4 has been used already in another 800....

I've seen in 8 game and 9 game qualifying, any 3 games in a row can qualify for the 800 series. It don't have to be 1,2,3, then 4,5,6 or 7,8,9 if it's a 9 game of qualifying.

I'm only assuming that SASBA is not playing with which games they were, when reporting them. Normally the older than us people are more honest than the younger crowd in my opinion...

I'm going to check the rules...

Rule 51b. Series Awards

Three consecutive games must be bowled in league or tournament play to qualify for series awards. For average requirements on average based awards, see Rule 53.

1. A series shall be figured as follows:

a. If more than three but less than six games are bowled, use the first three games.

b. If six or more games are bowled, use each succeeding set of three games following the first three games.

2. In tournament play, each three game series must be bowled in the same block.

3. A series of games can be bowled consecutively against one or more opponents.

4. Games must be bowled on the same date.

5. A member is eligible for one award in each of the following three game series categories during a fiscal year (August 1-July 31):

a. 900 series*

b. 800 to 899*

c. 700 to 799 with a 210 average or below

d. 600 to 699 with a 175 average or below

e. 500 to 599 with a 140 average or below

f. 400 to 499 with a 115 average or below

g. 300 to 399 with a 90 average or below

h. 200 to 299 with a 50 average or below

i. 140 pins over series average

6. Where a choice of awards is available in any category the member is entitled to a choice of an award for the first score recorded. Any additional score in the same category that fiscal year will be officially recognized by USBC, but will not qualify for an award.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Cannot be earned while pre or post bowling unopposed.

[MrPerfect]

Ok, I didn't know that and SASBA must be playing with the games as far as which games they were.

So, if it's a Tourn. that has 8 games of qualifying, the games #'s for shooting an 800 series are, 1, 2, 3, then 4, 5, 6, and games 7 & 8 can't be used at all then.... except for a 300 or 299 or whatever... is that correct?

[PBAHoFer]

mrperfect said:

Ok, I didn't know that and SASBA must be playing with the games as far as which games they were.

So, if it's a Tourn. that has 8 games of qualifying, the games #'s for shooting an 800 series are, 1, 2, 3, then 4, 5, 6, and games 7 & 8 can't be used at all then.... except for a 300 or 299 or whatever... is that correct?

That's how I interpret the rule, and I remember that happening when we ran the Junior Masters in the '80's.. we had 16 games of Match Play, and sereis games had to be 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, 10-11-12, 13-14-15

Philip Royles had an 800 (1st one I think) for games 14-15-16 once is how I remember

[PBAHoFer]

Well, I'll wage in with a post, but, I don't expect to respond to any of the replies...

It was like a "Full Moon" was out for this tournament... I would like to commend our tournament staff that conducted the tournament, and again, same day pay-off right at Christmas is a bonus... this tournament has been paid off same day for 2 years now, as it should have always been.

Thanks to all the bowlers that participated... I personally thank you for supporting your local Associaiton's efforts.

Congratulations to the winners, even though as i write this I have no ide who won any of the divisions.

I finished 4th in my group, and I congratulate myself on bowling well enough to make it as far as I did... I averaged 163 for qualifying, which was over the average I am on, and 8 pins higher than I am carrying...

The Board has listened to the MANY suggestions we were offered yesterday and will take the information back to committee for future events.

However, I might remind some of you, this was a certified tournament, with rules and prize fund pay-off being approved by USBC... last minute changes to format and procedures are NOT ALLOWED, regardless of entries or lack thereof.

Secondly, you cannot run a double elimination with 6 bowlers. You have 3 losers after the first match... 1 bowlers has no opponent... it's basic mathematics to calculate how many you need to run this format...

Next, our staff missed the bracket set up as recommended... typical recommended set up is

top 1/2
1 v 8
5 v 4

bottom 1/2
3 v 6
7 v 2

We will use a different format of a double elimination schedule if we continue this format for the finals in the future. It adds alot of games to the tournament that draws against the prize fund... I think a 5 stair step or, a single elimination bracket based on standnigs for the Top 8 would be better...

Bowlers, your input and recommendations for future events is welcomed...

Our Association focus is changing from awards and processing paperwork to service, providing events for our membership and growing the sport.

We will continue to improve HOW we provide this as we move forward.

[SoMuchHookUCanFish]

who won?