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Post by WineUdotKing on Aug 31, 2006 7:22:27 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else.
We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet.
Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO
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Post by MrPerfect on Aug 31, 2006 7:55:55 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else. We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet. Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO Good bowling Kris..... But you bring up a good point for discussion Wine, as far as leagues and the handicap they use......90% of the team difference seems a little high for my liking.... It's funny, no matter how much handicap a league votes in, there are always ways to beat the system so to say..... The higher handicap in this case will only cause a higher environment of sandbagging among some....JMO... That is why I have always been a proponent of lower handicap leagues....JMO....
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Post by thedoctor on Aug 31, 2006 8:47:55 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else. We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet. Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO The handicap has been that way for at least the last 2 year with this year making 3. The year before that it was 100% of the difference, that is why the team I was on almost quit back then. I remember that one game we shot very well, being that our low average bowler was in the 190's, I was 250+, we had another 230+ with a couple 200's to 220's and still weren't even close to winning the game.
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Post by thedoctor on Aug 31, 2006 8:51:40 GMT -5
Last night I did alright, I guess. Went 205-235-222=662. I guess it wasn't bad for only bowling about 12 games all summer. We did win 3 even with 2 vacants(so if anyone nows someone let me know).
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Post by WineUdotKing on Aug 31, 2006 9:18:33 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else. We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet. Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO The handicap has been that way for at least the last 2 year with this year making 3. The year before that it was 100% of the difference, that is why the team I was on almost quit back then. I remember that one game we shot very well, being that our low average bowler was in the 190's, I was 250+, we had another 230+ with a couple 200's to 220's and still weren't even close to winning the game. Are you sure it was this league that was 90% of the difference? I thought this league was 90% of 210 for each bowler because I remember both teams getting handicap last year and this year only 1 team gets handicap.
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Post by PBAHoFer on Aug 31, 2006 9:25:56 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else. We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet. Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO Good bowling Kris..... But you bring up a good point for discussion Wine, as far as leagues and the handicap they use......90% of the team difference seems a little high for my liking.... It's funny, no matter how much handicap a league votes in, there are always ways to beat the system so to say..... The higher handicap in this case will only cause a higher environment of sandbagging among some....JMO... That is why I have always been a proponent of lower handicap leagues....JMO.... There is no way a conversation about handicap is not going to cause different opinions, with ZERO compromise. As proven in the breakdown I did for the Sport League, lower handicap % and basis allows higher average bowlers and teams to win. You can usually line up the team's standings based on team or individual averages. mr. perfect will never fully understand handicap concept because he has and will always be an elite bowler with an average and capabilities higher than the "average" bowler. It just seems like the lower average bowlers "always" shoot over their averages and win, or make it tough for the higher average teams to win, but, looking at standings, that argument is just not correct. I understand the concept of it being easier to bowl over your average when it is lower, and there is a limited number of pins that a 200+ average can bowl over their average... However, the talent is just not there to allow a lower average bowler to consistently outperform their average by more than the 10% advantage that 90% handicap still gives to the higher average bowler. In today's bowling (and life) environment, the incentive to improve, or actually work for something and earn it is not there. So, the lower average bowlers want the handicap % based so they can win just as much as more talented bowlers. I can't blame them. Really. The money they are spending for league fees is the same. I know the Monday night league handicap is based on 210. That is too low for Armadilla. There are too many bowlers with averages higher than that in this city. There is 2 1/2 pages of averages in our average book that are that high.
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Post by MrPerfect on Aug 31, 2006 9:33:59 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you on your points PBA....and you make some good ones..... To me, the deciding factor would be, what is the intent of the league. If the Mixed league is strong, then I feel lower handicap is in order but if the league is pretty mixed and most of the bowlers are average to lower average bowlers then more handicap is justified in my opinion. Then, if the higher average bowlers want to bowl it, then don't biatch about the handicap, we should bowl leagues that have less or none, if they are still out there any where....JMO..
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Post by PBAHoFer on Aug 31, 2006 9:44:53 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you on your points PBA....and you make some good ones..... To me, the deciding factor would be, what is the intent of the league. If the Mixed league is strong, then I feel lower handicap is in order but if the league is pretty mixed and most of the bowlers are average to lower average bowlers then more handicap is justified in my opinion. Then, if the higher average bowlers want to bowl it, then don't biatch about the handicap, we should bowl leagues that have less or none, if they are still out there any where....JMO.. That's the problem. Those type leagues are non-existent anymore. Look @ Armadilla Dollars for example. That is a high dollar league with a bunch of low averages and even several entry level bowlers. In that circumstance, I do not agree to set the handicap to favor them... they know the intent of the league. I blame the Center for allowing those entry level bowlers to join a league like that... But, also, we are limited on lanes and how many teams we can even have... so we want to fill up our # of lanes...
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Post by PBAHoFer on Aug 31, 2006 10:00:39 GMT -5
Well a new season got started last night. There are several forum members that bowl this league. I guess this is as good of a place to see how the league is going as anywhere else. We have actually started out the season 3-1. There's a surprise. I shot pretty good. 227-258-228 = 713. Broke even on the brackets and swept my side bet. Handicap in this league is different this year. Last year it was 90% of 210 per person...this year it is 90% of the team difference. This will give the lower average bowlers a lot bigger chance to win. You will probably see several scratch bowlers that don't get in brackets do some average control this season instead of giving it their best...JMO Man, Whiner... you are such a conspiracy theorist...
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Post by thedoctor on Aug 31, 2006 10:02:44 GMT -5
The handicap has been that way for at least the last 2 year with this year making 3. The year before that it was 100% of the difference, that is why the team I was on almost quit back then. I remember that one game we shot very well, being that our low average bowler was in the 190's, I was 250+, we had another 230+ with a couple 200's to 220's and still weren't even close to winning the game. Are you sure it was this league that was 90% of the difference? I thought this league was 90% of 210 for each bowler because I remember both teams getting handicap last year and this year only 1 team gets handicap. No, this league has been this way for several years now.
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Post by MrPerfect on Aug 31, 2006 10:04:50 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you on your points PBA....and you make some good ones..... To me, the deciding factor would be, what is the intent of the league. If the Mixed league is strong, then I feel lower handicap is in order but if the league is pretty mixed and most of the bowlers are average to lower average bowlers then more handicap is justified in my opinion. Then, if the higher average bowlers want to bowl it, then don't biatch about the handicap, we should bowl leagues that have less or none, if they are still out there any where....JMO.. That's the problem. Those type leagues are non-existent anymore. Look @ Armadilla Dollars for example. That is a high dollar league with a bunch of low averages and even several entry level bowlers. In that circumstance, I do not agree to set the handicap to favor them... they know the intent of the league. I blame the Center for allowing those entry level bowlers to join a league like that... But, also, we are limited on lanes and how many teams we can even have... so we want to fill up our # of lanes... I to consider the Armadilla Dollars as a higher level league and lower handicap should be used...but if the league is using a difference of the team averages, a 80 or 85% level should be used, because it does take in to account those bowlers with averages over 220..... But if a league is using a 210 handicap system, then I can see 90% very easily to help make that up on the bowlers over 220 which is more common in both Armadilla houses....JMO...If it's off of 220...90% is probably still ok and fair but I personally, try to shy away from those leagues because I feel they are meant for the lower average bowlers...JMO..
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Post by PBAHoFer on Aug 31, 2006 10:13:03 GMT -5
That's the problem. Those type leagues are non-existent anymore. Look @ Armadilla Dollars for example. That is a high dollar league with a bunch of low averages and even several entry level bowlers. In that circumstance, I do not agree to set the handicap to favor them... they know the intent of the league. I blame the Center for allowing those entry level bowlers to join a league like that... But, also, we are limited on lanes and how many teams we can even have... so we want to fill up our # of lanes... I to consider the Armadilla Dollars as a higher level league and lower handicap should be used...but if the league is using a difference of the team averages, a 80 or 85% level should be used, because it does take in to account those bowlers with averages over 220..... But if a league is using a 210 handicap system, then I can see 90% very easily to help make that up on the bowlers over 220 which is more common in both Armadilla houses....JMO...If it's off of 220...90% is probably still ok and fair but I personally, try to shy away from those leagues because I feel they are meant for the lower average bowlers...JMO.. The % is the key... 80% of 300 favors the higher averages more than 90% of anything... as long as the base is higher than the leagues highest average. Now, basing individual handicap off of an average lower than someone's average favors that higher average. They get free pins, PLUS the 10%.
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Post by MrPerfect on Aug 31, 2006 10:19:47 GMT -5
I to consider the Armadilla Dollars as a higher level league and lower handicap should be used...but if the league is using a difference of the team averages, a 80 or 85% level should be used, because it does take in to account those bowlers with averages over 220..... But if a league is using a 210 handicap system, then I can see 90% very easily to help make that up on the bowlers over 220 which is more common in both Armadilla houses....JMO...If it's off of 220...90% is probably still ok and fair but I personally, try to shy away from those leagues because I feel they are meant for the lower average bowlers...JMO.. The % is the key... 80% of 300 favors the higher averages more than 90% of anything... as long as the base is higher than the leagues highest average. Now, basing individual handicap off of an average lower than someone's average favors that higher average. They get free pins, PLUS the 10%. I guess the only way to find a fair handicap systems is to find out what the "degree of difficulty curve" is for a bowler carrying a 225 average as opposed to a 185 average...and put it in the form of a percentage......The question then becomes, is 10%...15%.... or even 20% the fair percentage when handicapping...
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Post by WineUdotKing on Aug 31, 2006 10:46:56 GMT -5
Are you sure it was this league that was 90% of the difference? I thought this league was 90% of 210 for each bowler because I remember both teams getting handicap last year and this year only 1 team gets handicap. No, this league has been this way for several years now. You are correct now that I think about it. It is my KC league that does the 90% of 210 so both teams get handicap. MY BAD.
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Post by MrPerfect on Aug 31, 2006 10:56:40 GMT -5
Just an FYI....lol... The Forum will be MrPerfect Free tomorrow..... I'm taking off work to take a one day gambling trip to the LDL Casino in LA....Y'all have fun without me tomorrow.... Because I know I will be having fun....lol...
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