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Post by PBAHoFer on Sept 12, 2007 0:16:29 GMT -5
So... how many weeks of this league actually MET the requirements? I was very astonished to get a letter from USBC saying my 290 was denied because the lane tape sent in DID NOT meet requirements for a sport shot... So I have 15 days to write an appeal to USBC which i'm sure probably wont matter to them if our shots weren't meeting the requirements.. pretty pissed off, why did we even pay a sports sanction? I had already givin up bowling for the next year to take a break from it but now I pretty much never want to hold a bowling ball again. I would be interested to know that statistic myself... I am sorry your score was denied, but, in the olden days before legalized wall shots, lanes were checked after honor scores were bowled, and there were many rejected. Unless the house would oil the lanes earlier and we could run and analyze tapes before the league began, then I don't know how compliance could be guaranteed... In my opinion, the house is supplying the shot, and that is with whom the fault has to lie... unless the league wants to install some safeguards or assurances before bowling begins, and then, the league would have to know they cannot begin bowling until the lanes are "legal". There were many bowlers that walked away from the sport because their accomplishments were not recognized. And, there are many bowlers that are walking away because the awards are being reduced. There are no easy answers or solutions to the complexity of issues facing bowlers and bowling.
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Post by MrPerfect on Sept 12, 2007 8:42:28 GMT -5
The fault totally is on Armadilla 1 for not having their lane machince working properly..... They have had nothing but problems with it all summer and so far this fall.... at least on Thursday night...
The bowlers did their job, this league grew tremendously this last summer, the Assoc. did their job and came out and ran the tapes and sent them in.... There was another week I was aware of in the second 1/2 where the shot wasn't approved but nothing was shot that week.... and that week it wasn't approved because there was too much of a difference oil between the middle of the lanes and the outsides.... the middle had too little oil and went over the 2-1/2 to1 ratio or 3 to 1 ratio... I can't remember... It actually made the shot harder but since there was too much ratio difference (either way dosen't matter) the condition was turned down......
That's a good way to kill a league like this, having a peice of shiat lane machine that can't do what it's suppose to do....JMO....
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Post by Orkocean on Sept 13, 2007 1:25:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't even see a reason to appeal it.. If the shot wasn't meeting the rules then I can understand that and see why it's denied.. but it still is a major hit to think you did something that you value above all your other accomplishments then have it taken away because of something you had no control over... And yet they approve 2 900's by some kid... Reading that letter pretty much put the final nail in my coffin for my lil bit of bowling i've done in my life.. I have ZERO bowling balls/shoes/bags anymore in my possession.. i've already given all my equipment away to friends.. IF I ever decide to bowl again I know one thing it wont be in pasadena...
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Post by WineUdotKing on Sept 13, 2007 7:37:09 GMT -5
Don't give up on Pasadena. Maybe just Armadilla. It is not the Association that is at fault here. You can ask Jeff Joned about is first 300 back when he was 15. It was turned down, but it didn't make him want to give up the sport. You need to reconcider your choice of quiting. JMO
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Post by PBAHoFer on Sept 13, 2007 20:17:40 GMT -5
The fault totally is on Armadilla 1 for not having their lane machince working properly..... They have had nothing but problems with it all summer and so far this fall.... at least on Thursday night... The bowlers did their job, this league grew tremendously this last summer, the Assoc. did their job and came out and ran the tapes and sent them in.... There was another week I was aware of in the second 1/2 where the shot wasn't approved but nothing was shot that week.... and that week it wasn't approved because there was too much of a difference oil between the middle of the lanes and the outsides.... the middle had too little oil and went over the 2-1/2 to1 ratio or 3 to 1 ratio... I can't remember... It actually made the shot harder but since there was too much ratio difference (either way dosen't matter) the condition was turned down...... That's a good way to kill a league like this, having a peice of shiat lane machine that can't do what it's suppose to do....JMO.... XBOM HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think you can blame Armadilla in this matter. When Hitman applied for an app to have a PBA Experience at Armadilla Lanes he was asked by USBC what type of lane machine was being used he told them a phoenix with wicks. USBC then sent him the pattern to use in the machine that would be "CLOSE" to the same but not EXACT. Knowing this I wasn't going to bowl because it couldn't be done exactly as the PBA. Well the week before league started Jeremy got his team together and asked me to bowl. I said ok but knew it would be hard to duplicate the real patterns. That being said I would protest the scores being turned down but first I would contact Hitman and see if he was told of any consequences that could arise if honor scores were shot. After all it was USBC that sent the programs to be run week to week. JMO XBOM
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Post by johndoe on Sept 14, 2007 6:29:38 GMT -5
I would have to agree with XBOM on this one. Almost EVERYONE, especially PERFECT, wants to blame the house for the shot being wrong but it's the USBC that everyone needs to be upset with here. They are the ones who sent the patterns "that should work" with the Phoenix machine that Arm.1 has.
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Post by PBAHoFer on Sept 14, 2007 7:50:37 GMT -5
I hadn't remembered that about the machine and shot, but, now that XBOM reminded me, I recant part of my post about it, and agree, ORKA and CLINTOSAURUS should use that in their appeal of the situation...
Also, I don't want to continue to just pass the blame around based on opinion... Was the lane machine even reprogrammed for the PBA shot those nights? I seem to remember last year the machine "reset" itself to the house shot about 1/2 way through the oiling process...
perfect said one night the non-compliance was becasue the 2:1 oili ratio was less, making the shot more difficult... is that what happened on the nights in question?
Should the tapes be run and read by the Association to ensure compliance before bowling is allowed? And the lanes reoiled if they fail?
Roger questioned whether it was even worth the cost and effort to certify "Sport"... couldn't the house run a PBA shot league unofficially?... that IS happening around the country, but, of course, is not recommended by USBC, and I think it would detract from the prestige of having a PBA League... then, if someone WERE to bowl an honor score, they would only qualify for non-sport recognition.
It creates another "problem" by trying to absolve the initial issue...
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Post by MrPerfect on Sept 14, 2007 8:50:14 GMT -5
The fault totally is on Armadilla 1 for not having their lane machince working properly..... They have had nothing but problems with it all summer and so far this fall.... at least on Thursday night... The bowlers did their job, this league grew tremendously this last summer, the Assoc. did their job and came out and ran the tapes and sent them in.... There was another week I was aware of in the second 1/2 where the shot wasn't approved but nothing was shot that week.... and that week it wasn't approved because there was too much of a difference oil between the middle of the lanes and the outsides.... the middle had too little oil and went over the 2-1/2 to1 ratio or 3 to 1 ratio... I can't remember... It actually made the shot harder but since there was too much ratio difference (either way dosen't matter) the condition was turned down...... That's a good way to kill a league like this, having a peice of shiat lane machine that can't do what it's suppose to do....JMO.... XBOM HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think you can blame Armadilla in this matter. When Hitman applied for an app to have a PBA Experience at Armadilla Lanes he was asked by USBC what type of lane machine was being used he told them a phoenix with wicks. USBC then sent him the pattern to use in the machine that would be "CLOSE" to the same but not EXACT. Knowing this I wasn't going to bowl because it couldn't be done exactly as the PBA. Well the week before league started Jeremy got his team together and asked me to bowl. I said ok but knew it would be hard to duplicate the real patterns. That being said I would protest the scores being turned down but first I would contact Hitman and see if he was told of any consequences that could arise if honor scores were shot. After all it was USBC that sent the programs to be run week to week. JMO XBOM That is true to some extent... but the shot was acceptable for most of the 12 weeks (anywhere from 7 to 9 weeks I presume).... So can we say that the pattern was wrong from USBC?.... The code for the pattern is the same (if entered the same each week)..... What wasn't the same was the mechanical operation of the machine from week to week.... or possibly from pair to pair... who knows.... All we know, is that the lane that was taped, wasn't acceptable..... Other pairs may have or may not have.... If the shot wasn't acceptable at all for all the weeks, then I would lean toward USBC being wrong but since the pattern was accepted for over 1/2 the league, then it makes me wonder about the lane machine itself...JMO...
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Post by hitman3011 on Sept 14, 2007 9:56:43 GMT -5
Well, it was unfortunate that we had some lane issues with the shot on this league. Our league was not alone in this regard. The first hurdle we had issues with is the lane machine. Not that it was a piece of crap or anything. The patterns are very tough to put out on the padded machine we have. The patterns do come from USBC website and we actually tweaked the 2nd half pattern once to compliance. The first 5 weeks were fine; the 6th week we had non-compliance because there was not enough oil on the middle part of the lanes. The pattern requires a 3 to 1 ratio across all boards (meaning it cannot be greater ratio than that anywhere across the lanes) When that pattern failed, we were at 3.1 to 1. The second half pattern was harder to keep in compliance. We just cannot adjust the pads like is needed to make that much of an adjustment. I got a couple messages from Andrew at the head quarters that the shot was non-complaint 2 weeks after the fact. With no recommendation on how to adjust. It was a phone tag for a couple weeks as well. There have been more than a few issues around the country with this same problem. USBS has seen increased participation with the EXPERIENCE leagues though and that is a good thing. As well, we had another issue, the Assc. laptop software would not work this year and would not email the graphs to USBC, so we had to print them each Wed and mail out to the headquarters for them to determine if they were compliant. This would not matter much as the tapes are taken right before we bowl and even if we emailed them that night, USBC would not read them that night anyway.
It is very unfortunate that we had 2 scores rejected on this league. The patterns that we supplied were no where near house shots and were not out of compliance but by a small margin. I can only assume that since we was compliant most of the league, the varying factors had to be the machine and maybe lane to lane. We were right on the border of a complaint shot each week anyway; any little variance would have changed that. Now, we have discussed running this league either 2 ways..go back to the pure sport league shot, where we had not problems laying down the patterns, or running the patterns best we can, and not sanctioning it as an official EXPERIENCE league. That also is growing across the country as people are having the same sort of issues. Plus, I believe the sanctioning fee is going to 15.00 for the sports leagues as well. Other than the top awards, 11 in a row, 300 etc, are there great benefits the MAJORITY of the league members? As well, until we get a wick machine to lay down the PBA patterns, we would encounter the same problems next year. It is open for discussion.
I am in the end responsible for the patterns and the compliance issues with the league.
I offer my apologies to Clint and Orcocean for your scores to be turned down. Although not officially recognized by USBC, that in no means devalues the accomplishment. I do understand how you feel, when I was 15 I shot my first 300 as a junior bowler in 1982, it was rejected as the lanes deemed too easy. But I am just as proud for that one as any. Please let me know what dates you 2 bowled on the scores on if you can and I will follow up with USBC to see exactly what the tapes showed that league session. i will get a hold of Roger Banks to gather the information if you cannot remember the dates, or just the week of the league it was bowled. I will let you guys know what I find out.
This was our first go at the experience league, I hate that we had these issues with it as I would like to see some sort of sport bowling continue in Pasadena.
james hickey
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Post by MrPerfect on Sept 14, 2007 10:21:47 GMT -5
Well written James....
I've heard that next year Randy wants to get two new lane machines for Arm I and Arm II....the ones that spray the patterns that can lay all the PBA Patterns....NO PADS.... But he may get them right before Fall leagues next year and if that's the case, we won't have use of them until after this summer league is over... It would be nice if they got one of them sooner so it could be used at Arm I..... ;D
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Post by johndoe on Sept 14, 2007 12:03:48 GMT -5
Perfect I think you are just upset because a "Great Bowler" of your stature can't make the adjustment so that you can score or is it that you've gotten so used to the "Great Wall Of China" house shots ? Personally I think the shot is okay since in the 2 nights I bowled last week I averaged 241.
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Post by MrPerfect on Sept 14, 2007 13:04:32 GMT -5
Perfect I think you are just upset because a "Great Bowler" of your stature can't make the adjustment so that you can score or is it that you've gotten so used to the "Great Wall Of China" house shots ? Personally I think the shot is okay since in the 2 nights I bowled last week I averaged 241. They were fine last night but last week was tough for me and many others.... that also did well last night.... I have no problem bowling on a tougher shot.... It's just that in all of my leagues at Arm I & II, we had to start off with our league avg. from last year and have to use it for 9 games regardless of what you bowl those 9 games.....So after having the highest Avg. at Arm II last year, which was also 2nd highest in Houston....at 234 on Tuesday nights and only be able to avg. 200 even for 9 games, because my ball reaction is not the same (much worse) I end up killing the team shooting 190's and 200's on a 234 avg. and that been much the same story at Arm I all summer and the first week in the Oxy league, until last night.... I also had the 2nd highest avg. in Pasadena just behind Charlie Mills.... and I had high avg. last year and one of the higher averages in the PBA experience league..... so how good I am is more than just talk, I can do the walk to..... I'll borrow a line from Marc L. (Smurf) "Shoe up, Pay up, Shut up"..... anytime you want to bowl for money, let me know....
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