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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 15, 2007 11:44:18 GMT -5
Had a good time bowling this event yesterday. SASBA uses this same format for their 4 member Team Christmas Tourn. they have every December and I enjoy it very much.
The Tourn. ran fairly smoothly with exception to a couple of mistakes and computer glitches that caused the time between games to be a bit too long in my opinion but other than that, the Assoc. did a great job.
The shot was even good, starting off anyways....lol...but by the 5th game the right side became very tough because the track fried and oil carry down... Had games of 256, 257, 256, 223, 199, 180....+171 for 6 games and avg. 228.5 for the day.... Our team didn't do very well, Lorrie and Garland had an off day and those things happen.... Personally I thought there was too much handicap for the event but that's just my opinion...since the shot is not as scorable as last year, but we had to use last years averages....This made it hard on many of the better league bowlers to win their matches against bowlers with high handicap, since lanes conditions don't effect their scores....again, just my opinion...
I don't know how the top 4 teams finished in the finals but congrats to those teams and bowlers that made the finals... ;D Great Bowling....
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Post by WineUdotKing on Oct 16, 2007 7:26:55 GMT -5
Congrats to all the winners. It also looked like most of the bowlers had a good time.
I think the board did a real good job overall considering we have never run a Mixed Trio tournament before. I would like to thank Jimmy Mc for designing a spreadsheet to help keep up with everything. I know it would have taken longer if we didn't have something like that.
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Post by PBAHoFer on Oct 16, 2007 7:46:15 GMT -5
Well, I have listened and heard various "complaints", really observations, about the tournament.
Handicap: Of course a higher average bowler wants to limit the amount of handicap received by lower average bowlers. But, those same bowlers would never agree to limit the score they can bowl... Example, handicap was based on 220... there was two 230+ average bowlers competing... Do you think they would have agreed to their top score being 290? (12 x 90%= 10) so, since they are over the base, thus receiving free pins each game, then to make it fair you should deduct those pins from their score... In effect, that is the same thing you are doing by limiting handicap. The lowest average bowler in the tournament bowled the best... that's why they won. It's not like she wasn't using a "Betty Boop Viz-a-ball" for every spare...
There is no easy solution to this... One fix may be not to offer so few events that you must rely on each and every "level" of bowler for entries... offer more variety of formats... However, with only 1700 members, and participation @ or below 2%, when we offer a scratch tournament be prepared to bowl against 15 other bowlers for limited amounts of prize money... and then, if the lane conditions have been tough, expect a fair amount of those scratch bowlers to take a pass, because the shot has been screwed up. I'll use mr. p as an example... everything was fine the first 3 games... 770+ sereis, all because he's the best bowler in Pasadena... then, the second 3 games, the lanes changed, the shot got tougher, he shot 606... now, the handicap is too high... the LH had the chongs all day... you get the picture...
Of course spending too much time trying to satisfy mr. p is a waste because it's hard to do... lol
Time between games: again no easy solution... figuring points by hand is a decent suggestions, however... many, many of the teams were not even filling out their recap sheets correctly... and eventually the bowlers would have been too far ahead of the official data... I think 1 possible solution is to draw for opponents, use a traditional schedule format same as regular league, and it's luck of the draw who you catch... bowl position round for game 6, then have a roll-off... that format provides the chance to just wait 1 game at the end for position standings...
OK, I have other stuff to do too...
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:04:36 GMT -5
I shot 769 for the first 3 games, then 602 for the last 3 games...
I never said anything about limiting the handicap or have it maxed out as other bowlers have said.
Question.... I wonder if I was the only bowler over 700 for the first three games?.... To the best of my knowledge, I was.... So my scoring was out of the normal among all the other 220+ avg. bowlers.... And even though my 232 avg. seems to be giving me an advantage when handicapping off 220..... it's not like handicap, I'm not guaranteed 12 pins like it's handicap.... I still have to shoot the score. And as you know very well, lane conditions dictate scores, especially for higher avg. bowlers.
Last year at Arm I, my avg. was 232.... this year (so far) it's 221 because the lane conditions have changed, via it the lane machine, the resurfacing or the lane finish, whatever it is, the lanes are not as scorable as last year. And the lower your avg. the less these conditions effect your scoring ability....IMO...
I think a handicap of 90% of 215 is better but it still may not have changed the out come of the Tourn. but it might have. Handicap is meant to give bowlers with lower skill levels a chance to compete, not to give them an advantage. And with the shot not being able to hold up for 6 games with only 6 people on a pair, made it very difficult for the higher avg. bowlers with that much handicap being given out to compete.... especially, me against left handers...lol.... I catch 3 left hander my last three games and lost to all three of them....Chris C., Cory B. and an older gentleman, I don't know getting a bunch of handicap my last game....
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Post by PBAHoFer on Oct 16, 2007 8:17:27 GMT -5
I will agree, you do not typically complain about the handicap... You are too obsessed with LH and lane conditions... lol
However, anytime there is less than 100% handicap then a higher average competitior always has an advantage based on the percentage... if it's a 90% handicap, there is a 10% decrease on pins, which is the allownace for the lower average bowler to compete... NOT have an equal advantage...
Another aspect which you are unable to understand is a lower average bower also does not have the xecution skills that the better bowlers have... and at any point in time, their fundamentals or execution can break down and their scores suffer... so, while the lanes may not affect their ability to score, their execution just may....
Now, all this is based on bowlers competing on their true average... if a bowler has improved and is using an old book average then that IS a case for 10 pin rules and other stuff... but, with many of the leagues only having bowled 5 or 6 weeks, it seemed unfair to apply a 10 pin rule on a 12 game average... that could have affected a bunch of bowlers even 200+ averages if they had a a 700 or something early in their season... so, we waived the rule and took the book.
Another thing we need to remember... we are trying to perfect a sport that has been flawed and imperfect for a long time... houses are different, lanes are done differently at each venue... maintenance and other factors affect scoring...
There is a good case for standard shots, standard bowling balls and dictated conditions... but, even in the PBA Exerience leagues... 1 house could run the highest scoring shot, which I believe is the Cheetah, and another could use the lowest scoring conditons... so the system is being set up screwey already...
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:20:44 GMT -5
If the lane conditions were optimum and stayed optimum for the entire Tourn., then a 90% of 220 would be fair..... but Tourns. with more than 3 games with 6 or more bowlers on a pair and having to switch pairs each game and only having practice before your first game, your not going to have optimum conditions for scoring throughout the Tourn. Especially, when most houses set up their lane machine to hold a shot for 3 games and so far this year, Arm I and Arm II have been tinkering with the shot at both houses just trying to get the first 3 games scorable for righties, much less have them scorable for righties for 6 games.....JMO...
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Post by WineUdotKing on Oct 16, 2007 8:30:50 GMT -5
That older gentleman was Doug Lacy.
Most handicap tournaments have gone to 220 to base their handicap. You are correct in that the handicap is to help the lower average bowler compete, but you are wrong about the handicap that was used gave them an advantage.
The example that David was trying to spell out for you is on your 232 average, let's say you shoot 220 even. You are 12 pins below your average. At the same time, your opponent on their 140 average shoots 146 and are 6 pins over their average. Their handicap is 72 pins for a total of 218. Who do you think wins that match? YOU DO. Even though you were 12 under and they were 6 over their average, you still won. So how is the handicap giving them an advantage?
If you looked real good at the overall standings, the lower average bowlers finished in the 2nd half of the standings except the team that won.
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:31:44 GMT -5
You forget... there is a degree or difficulty curve that many people forget when trying to set up a fair handicap.... There is only so many ways to shoot 230+ as opposed to 160 or 170... If I catch a couple of taps, or a 4-9 or a split.....I'm quickly only shooting 200 to 210 and possibly less.....
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Post by PBAHoFer on Oct 16, 2007 8:34:45 GMT -5
Don't forget that same degree of difficulty applied to someone that can't repeat shots and has no clue how to move for spares or adjust for different ball reactions...
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Post by WineUdotKing on Oct 16, 2007 8:34:52 GMT -5
Then in your opinion, scratch bowlers don't have a prayer in a handicap tournament. Is this what you are trying to say?
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:41:13 GMT -5
That older gentleman was Doug Lacy. Most handicap tournaments have gone to 220 to base their handicap. You are correct in that the handicap is to help the lower average bowler compete, but you are wrong about the handicap that was used gave them an advantage. The example that David was trying to spell out for you is on your 232 average, let's say you shoot 220 even. You are 12 pins below your average. At the same time, your opponent on their 140 average shoots 146 and are 6 pins over their average. Their handicap is 72 pins for a total of 218. Who do you think wins that match? YOU DO. Even though you were 12 under and they were 6 over their average, you still won. So how is the handicap giving them an advantage? If you looked real good at the overall standings, the lower average bowlers finished in the 2nd half of the standings except the team that won. I'll agree that I had less problems with the handicap for the Tourn. as opposed to the difference in scoring ability from lefty to righies after the first three games..... The team that won, had a good day and those things do happen. But I think this is why Handicap Tourn. bowling has gotten less these days because no one can agree on fair handicapping. Too many become disenfranchised with it for whatever reason (too much handicap, bowlers sandbagging and not on a true avg. or whatever) this has lead to the state of handicapped Tourns......If this was not a Pasadena Assoc. event, I probably would not have bowled. I'm a scratch bowler and I prefer to bowl scratch events...and that is where I should only bowl.... Handicap Tourns. are meant for bowlers that get handicap....JMO...
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:43:02 GMT -5
Don't forget that same degree of difficulty applied to someone that can't repeat shots and has no clue how to move for spares or adjust for different ball reactions... That's why they get some pins handicap and I don't.... I was mathematically speaking....not in the human element...
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:44:28 GMT -5
Then in your opinion, scratch bowlers don't have a prayer in a handicap tournament. Is this what you are trying to say? It depends on the shot....
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Post by PBAHoFer on Oct 16, 2007 8:45:18 GMT -5
That older gentleman was Doug Lacy. Most handicap tournaments have gone to 220 to base their handicap. You are correct in that the handicap is to help the lower average bowler compete, but you are wrong about the handicap that was used gave them an advantage. The example that David was trying to spell out for you is on your 232 average, let's say you shoot 220 even. You are 12 pins below your average. At the same time, your opponent on their 140 average shoots 146 and are 6 pins over their average. Their handicap is 72 pins for a total of 218. Who do you think wins that match? YOU DO. Even though you were 12 under and they were 6 over their average, you still won. So how is the handicap giving them an advantage? If you looked real good at the overall standings, the lower average bowlers finished in the 2nd half of the standings except the team that won. I'll agree that I had less problems with the handicap for the Tourn. as opposed to the difference in scoring ability from lefty to righies after the first three games..... The team that won, had a good day and those things do happen. But I think this is why Handicap Tourn. bowling has gotten less these days because no one can agree on fair handicapping. Too many become disenfranchised with it for whatever reason (too much handicap, bowlers sandbagging and not on a true avg. or whatever) this has lead to the state of handicapped Tourns......If this was not a Pasadena Assoc. event, I probably would not have bowled. I'm a scratch bowler and I prefer to bowl scratch events...and that is where I should only bowl.... Handicap Tourns. are meant for bowlers that get handicap....JMO... I have to say I agree with mr. p on this... and I do appreciate you supporting Pasadena bowling by entering... and you should have won a little money as well as you bowled... The All Star Tournament is next... and it is SCRATCH in division 1. Qualifying for 3 weeks in league beginning November 1 thru the Wed before Thanksgiving. 3 games @ Armadilla followed by 3 games @ Mega Plex and the bracket finals will be @ Mega Plex as well on December 8th.
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Post by MrPerfect on Oct 16, 2007 8:52:18 GMT -5
I did win two scratch high games (but neither of those 256 or 257 would have cashed in the handicap high game those two games) and I won 5 of the 6 brackets I got in the first three games..... I didn't cash in the scratch brackets for the 4th through 6th games.... I'm sure the lefties ran all over them. (Cory and Chris C.). but Wine could better tell us if that was true as to who won the brackets for the second three games.
After it was all said and done... I think I was up 95.00 bucks for the day..... after Tourn. costs and all side stuff....
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