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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 11:07:12 GMT -5
I miss read your post I thought you wanted something stronger than your horizon. Let me redo the though process then lol.
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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 11:17:06 GMT -5
I would suggest you either get another horizon and drill it different or get another doom and drill it different . What those 2 balls are drilled to do are on the higher ends of the spectrum for strong and weak i.e The horizon is drilled to be flippy and is pretty much the most dramatic break point shape you can get with it because that was what you wanted. Now the doom is drilled to be smooth and that it is and it is pretty much a lable drill wich is early flair and smooth continueation at the break or off the dry. So you know you already like these 2 balls why not try a different drilling, I can drill the horizon to be longer and smoother than the current one you have, I can make the doom stronger off the break than the one you have now.
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 11:28:57 GMT -5
True, I probably need two balls, a true dry lane ball and another one to replace my Crunch Time and Blade. Those two balls react close to the same but since Jimbo resurfaced both of them, the Crunch Time finishes a little stronger. And if Arm II is going to stay a little slicker than what we've had, the need for a true dry lane ball can wait a bit ...IMO... I think I need another ball drilled up similar to the Horizon you did for me but with a tamer cover stock and maybe a little higher RG. and I'm open to all suggestions and Manufacturers. Hmmm did you think about the horizon solid? Its just been released a few weeks ago. rotogrip.com/balls_horizon_solid.aspx Personaly how do you feel about brunswick balls? If you can wait a week or 2 the tottal inferno should be out and all I have heard is great things about it. It will be every bit as good as the original inferno trust me on this one. But if Big b is not your style then lets keep the door open for something else. I dont think your man enough to throw the angular one, would probably be to much ball for your mighty fluff, But you need a solid reactive in your bag but either of the 2 above would work well even though they are pearls and then we have the ball I first suggested wich is the RAW HAMMER PAIN same weight block as your doom but a solid earlier rolling cover, seems to be a great 1-2 punch for alot of people www.hammerbowling.com/products/balls/detail.php?PRKey=53 www.hammerbowling.com/products/balls/index.php . www.trackbowling.com/gear/balls.cfm?bid=57I have nothing against Brunswick, the Total Inferno sounds good. I'll talk to Jimbo next week to get me one, when they come out. At Arm II, my Doom over/under reacts for me. It hooks too soon when I move right and won't carry well when I move in deeper. That ball works better at Arm I for me when I can play a tighter line.
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 11:32:22 GMT -5
Is the Total Inferno a hooking ball?....if so, no I don't want it....
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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 11:46:50 GMT -5
Is the Total Inferno a hooking ball?....if so, no I don't want it.... I think they are all hooking balls these days unless you throw plastic lol.
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 12:00:58 GMT -5
Just did some looking around, and for what I'm wanting right now a medium to medium dry ball, the possibles are:
Brunswick Radical Inferno Ebonite SR300 Roto Grip RS-P Storm T-Road Pearl Track Equation Columbia Wrath
Those seem to be the types of ball I'm needing now, layout based on what I got now and what I need it for can be discussed later in the Pro shop...
But what are your opinions and feed back on those balls?
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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 12:47:27 GMT -5
Just did some looking around, and for what I'm wanting right now a medium to medium dry ball, the possibles are: Brunswick Radical Inferno Ebonite SR300 Roto Grip RS-P Storm T-Road Pearl Track Equation Columbia Wrath Those seem to be the types of ball I'm needing now, layout based on what I got now and what I need it for can be discussed later in the Pro shop... But what are your opinions and feed back on those balls? My thoughts are they are all low rg balls lol. But one that jumps out is the equation wich is a very good ball. the sr300 being a higher rg but stronger cover. brb lunch time.
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 12:52:39 GMT -5
Just did some looking around, and for what I'm wanting right now a medium to medium dry ball, the possibles are: Brunswick Radical Inferno Ebonite SR300 Roto Grip RS-P Storm T-Road Pearl Track Equation Columbia Wrath Those seem to be the types of ball I'm needing now, layout based on what I got now and what I need it for can be discussed later in the Pro shop... But what are your opinions and feed back on those balls? My thoughts are they are all low rg balls lol. But one that jumps out is the equation wich is a very good ball. the sr300 being a higher rg but stronger cover. brb lunch time. I'm going to lunch as well.. to be sure I'm thinking correctly the RG being low or high has to do with the positioning of the weight block as to if it is closer to the middle of the ball for lower rg and futher away from the middle of the ball for higher rg... is that correct?...
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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 14:56:51 GMT -5
My thoughts are they are all low rg balls lol. But one that jumps out is the equation wich is a very good ball. the sr300 being a higher rg but stronger cover. brb lunch time. I'm going to lunch as well.. to be sure I'm thinking correctly the RG being low or high has to do with the positioning of the weight block as to if it is closer to the middle of the ball for lower rg and futher away from the middle of the ball for higher rg... is that correct?... Not sure what your talking about but I think you are in the right frame of mind. Center heavy = low rg cover heavy= high rg the lower the rg the sooner the ball will rev up and the easier it is to rev up off your hand, i prefer lower to medium low rg over the higher rg stuff. Form me the higher rg stuff gives me over under reactions and are erratic. The lower rg stuff gives me better reads through out the lane and is a little softer on the back for me wich suites my game. Inferno,vertigo,big rig, freak out, ego, 357 magnum, are all low rg balls that I have. Hot rod hybrid,rule gp2,vendetta sniper, are medium to medium high rg and are very condition specific and dont get much use unless I am bowling somewhere new then Ill take 1 or 2. Now the weight block being in the center or futher away from center is a way of thinking of it but it isnt entirely correct. Weight blocks have different densitys to them and thus the rg limits and max's scale. A weight block can be short & fat but have all the weight/density twoards the outer part thus haveing a higher rg (flip blocks are an example) on the flip side (no pun intended) a weight block can be tall (cover heavey) but have the density twoard the center and have a low rg. My point is its easier to look at the rg numbers than it is to look at the weight block and guess at what it will do. Now hieght v.s width can be seen by looking at the block and get an idea of how much the ball will flare. Differential is the difference between the hieght and width of the ball and usualy indicates how much the ball will flare in a leveraged position (pin 3-3/8 from pap) lower diff equals less flare wich equals less fresh surface of the ball exsposed to the lane wich means the ball will tend to be weaker in oil v.s dry. High differential means that the ball will flare more & expose more of its surface to the lane throughout wich = more friction wich = more hook. High rg low diff balls make good dry lane balls because of there natuaral abilitys, low rg high diff balls make better medium to heavy oil balls. See if this helps clear what I said up or maybe I tottaly confused you lol. Understanding the ball construction and its application to certain physical styles and lane conditions can be of tremendous benefit to your decision making. The basic component of ball construction is Radius of Gyration (RG). This is a measure of the amount of time that it takes a ball to complete a swing rotation cycle. Without getting into scientific measurements, the more the weight is concentrated toward the center of the ball, the faster the ball will swing. This is called Low RG. Its characteristic is to hook sooner. When the weight is located closer to the surface of the ball, the ball will swing slower. This is called High RG. Its characteristic is to have a more delayed breakpoint. The RG of the ball will dictate its breakpoint. The second measurement of a ball's dynamic potential is called RG Differential, or Differential for short. The differential is based on the shape of the core. Every core has a height and a width. Picture a softball. Its length and width are identical. No matter which plane you would perform an RG swing on, the swing time would be identical. This would result in no differential. This type of core would have a smooth rolling, low hook potential. Now picture a tall drinking glass. Its height is disproportionate to its width. There is much more mass vertically than horizontally. This ball would have a large difference between the swing rates. This core shape would have a high differential. Differential causes track flare and is an indicator of the speed of transition from skid to hook once the ball encounters lane friction. RG Differential is an indicator of the amount of hook potential at the breakpoint. This drinking glass core would be an example of a high differential, pin-in ball. The third measurement of a core's dynamic potential is called Mass Bias. To illustrate mass bias, let's use the drinking glass again. But we're going to add a handle on its side, turning it into a mug. Like the drinking glass, there is a difference in the height and width. But there is an additional difference between the width including the handle and the width without the handle. There is more mass closer to the surface in the area of the handle. There is a second differential between the swing time of the handle side and the side perpendicular to the handle. This difference can be minor, as in the case of a pin out ball, or major, as in the case of a ball using BOMB technology. A pin-out ball would have a small handle, a weaker influence. A BOMB core would have a larger handle, a stronger influence. Mass Bias changes the shape of the breakpoint. By shape I mean the amount of time it takes the ball to go into a forward roll. Forward roll occurs when the ball loses axis rotation (side roll). When a ball achieves forward roll, it has ceased hooking and now is rolling in a linear direction. Promoting a quicker forward roll would be beneficial in heavier oil conditions, promoting a slower transition to forward roll would be beneficial in lighter oil conditions.
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Post by XBOM on Nov 29, 2006 15:18:45 GMT -5
I'm going to lunch as well.. to be sure I'm thinking correctly the RG being low or high has to do with the positioning of the weight block as to if it is closer to the middle of the ball for lower rg and futher away from the middle of the ball for higher rg... is that correct?... Not sure what your talking about but I think you are in the right frame of mind. Center heavy = low rg cover heavy= high rg the lower the rg the sooner the ball will rev up and the easier it is to rev up off your hand, i prefer lower to medium low rg over the higher rg stuff. Form me the higher rg stuff gives me over under reactions and are erratic. The lower rg stuff gives me better reads through out the lane and is a little softer on the back for me wich suites my game. Inferno,vertigo,big rig, freak out, ego, 357 magnum, are all low rg balls that I have. Hot rod hybrid,rule gp2,vendetta sniper, are medium to medium high rg and are very condition specific and dont get much use unless I am bowling somewhere new then Ill take 1 or 2. Now the weight block being in the center or futher away from center is a way of thinking of it but it isnt entirely correct. Weight blocks have different densitys to them and thus the rg limits and max's scale. A weight block can be short & fat but have all the weight/density twoards the outer part thus haveing a higher rg (flip blocks are an example) on the flip side (no pun intended) a weight block can be tall (cover heavey) but have the density twoard the center and have a low rg. My point is its easier to look at the rg numbers than it is to look at the weight block and guess at what it will do. Now hieght v.s width can be seen by looking at the block and get an idea of how much the ball will flare. Differential is the difference between the hieght and width of the ball and usualy indicates how much the ball will flare in a leveraged position (pin 3-3/8 from pap) lower diff equals less flare wich equals less fresh surface of the ball exsposed to the lane wich means the ball will tend to be weaker in oil v.s dry. High differential means that the ball will flare more & expose more of its surface to the lane throughout wich = more friction wich = more hook. High rg low diff balls make good dry lane balls because of there natuaral abilitys, low rg high diff balls make better medium to heavy oil balls. See if this helps clear what I said up or maybe I tottaly confused you lol. Understanding the ball construction and its application to certain physical styles and lane conditions can be of tremendous benefit to your decision making. The basic component of ball construction is Radius of Gyration (RG). This is a measure of the amount of time that it takes a ball to complete a swing rotation cycle. Without getting into scientific measurements, the more the weight is concentrated toward the center of the ball, the faster the ball will swing. This is called Low RG. Its characteristic is to hook sooner. When the weight is located closer to the surface of the ball, the ball will swing slower. This is called High RG. Its characteristic is to have a more delayed breakpoint. The RG of the ball will dictate its breakpoint. The second measurement of a ball's dynamic potential is called RG Differential, or Differential for short. The differential is based on the shape of the core. Every core has a height and a width. Picture a softball. Its length and width are identical. No matter which plane you would perform an RG swing on, the swing time would be identical. This would result in no differential. This type of core would have a smooth rolling, low hook potential. Now picture a tall drinking glass. Its height is disproportionate to its width. There is much more mass vertically than horizontally. This ball would have a large difference between the swing rates. This core shape would have a high differential. Differential causes track flare and is an indicator of the speed of transition from skid to hook once the ball encounters lane friction. RG Differential is an indicator of the amount of hook potential at the breakpoint. This drinking glass core would be an example of a high differential, pin-in ball. The third measurement of a core's dynamic potential is called Mass Bias. To illustrate mass bias, let's use the drinking glass again. But we're going to add a handle on its side, turning it into a mug. Like the drinking glass, there is a difference in the height and width. But there is an additional difference between the width including the handle and the width without the handle. There is more mass closer to the surface in the area of the handle. There is a second differential between the swing time of the handle side and the side perpendicular to the handle. This difference can be minor, as in the case of a pin out ball, or major, as in the case of a ball using BOMB technology. A pin-out ball would have a small handle, a weaker influence. A BOMB core would have a larger handle, a stronger influence. Mass Bias changes the shape of the breakpoint. By shape I mean the amount of time it takes the ball to go into a forward roll. Forward roll occurs when the ball loses axis rotation (side roll). When a ball achieves forward roll, it has ceased hooking and now is rolling in a linear direction. Promoting a quicker forward roll would be beneficial in heavier oil conditions, promoting a slower transition to forward roll would be beneficial in lighter oil conditions. What the heck did he just say perfect? Did he say get a low rg ball which rolls early and drill it with a high differential to conteract the low rg it make it flip on the back? Sounda like some kind f ball guru mumbo jumbo to me !!! He's mr perfect make sure it's round punch 3 holes in it and let him bowl!!!! Personally I think I prefer lower rg's to get the ball rolling since I throw it so hard with a lot of loft and a higher differential to help it flip on the back!!! Am I right in that respect John?
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 15:22:27 GMT -5
No you didn't lose me, it's just the newer terms being used as opposed to my day in the early to mid 80's when laying out a ball.
We used the term "Top Weight" meaning the more you had, the longer the skid but it would hook harder when it did. Finger weight and Side weight also effected the break point in the same way but Top weight had more influence than the other two. We also used negative axis, bottom weighted balls, thumb weighted and low top weighted balls for slicker conditions along with a softer or more porous shell ball.... I just have trouble transposing some of the new terms to the older terms that I know better....
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 15:33:07 GMT -5
Let me add this to your thinking John, since most of the lane conditions we bowl league on are very soft, just about anything will hit the pocket and carry. With that in mind, should how a ball be drilled up these days have more to do with how the person throws the ball with some consideration to the lane condition? Or should how it's laid out have more to do with the lane condition instead of the bowler?
For me, my ball speed is not as high as Jimmy or Jeremy's, so for medium to dryer lane conditions, I feel I should use medium to higher RG patterns or balls. I should stay with lower RG patterns or balls for oiler conditions for sure. What's your thoughts?
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Post by screwedntexas on Nov 29, 2006 16:05:00 GMT -5
First of all let me answer jimmys question, yes lower rg tend to favor the higher ball speed people hence why storm equipment rolls so good for the majority of the higher ball speed guys because there high end stuff is low rg. Me I prefer low rg balls with high rg lay outs lol. I know it sounds wierd but it works for me I get the control & consistancy with mistake room that high rg stuff dont give me.
Perfect i really dont know what to tell you but every ball drilled should be drilled with a goal in mind and that ball should be picked out with a goal also. Your horizon is a low rg ball drilled with a high rg lay out with a forward roll flip position, its what you asked for and thats what you got lol. Forward roll flip is something you really dont see because not a whole lot of people are familiar with it or dont understand its purpose. With soft conditions around here and the clean backends we encounter the forward flip layout is at home because it gives you sudden change of direction then forward move to get deflection to minimize splits from the ball driveing to hard. I dont know if youve actualy paid attention to how the horizon rolls for you but its there you just have to see it to understand it. Now the rico is a speacial layout that favors the heavier handed peeps. It is intended to be smooth & strong at the same time and likes changes in hand positions to make it either flip or arc. Its a great layout if put on the right ball, your big time has this layout on it but I noticed the weight hole is in the wrong position to take full advantage of its nature, I am not sure how it happend and is probably my fault because I didnt tell jimbo where to put it, im sure I had something going on at the time and left him hanging.
Now as to wheather to drill for lane condition or drill for bowler on that lane condition it should be drilled for the bowler but the ball should fall in the spectrum of what the bowler is looking for. From what I know that you have and what works for different styles here is my recommendation. You have horizon drill high rg foward flip, doom drilled pin levarge or close to leavarge with the weight block in a smooth arc position for controle, you have a big time sanded with pin down in the high rg plane and weight block in the 45* angle cg in the thumb quadrant but the weight hole is in the wrong spot not really sure what this does for you, never seen you throw it, probably rolls early and quits on the back, this is not a charecteristic of the rico. I dont know how your blade and crunch time are laid out but let me look at there numbers and see what rg plane they are on and I can duplicate them with another ball and layout by adding the rg & diff together to come up with the number of inches needed to move the pin to achieve the desired rg plane. Dont concern yourself with this because it will probably give you a head ache lol.
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Post by MrPerfect on Nov 29, 2006 16:41:31 GMT -5
I don't necessarily want this new ball to be drilled up with the same pattern as my Blade or Crunch Time but I would like you to check them out so you know what I have already for future reference. I can still pull those balls back out if I need to out of my truck.
I think what I'm wanting for my next ball is a med. rg ball, a coverstock on the tame side but want the ball to turn good on the backends but not as aggressively as the Horizon layout but more than a controlled backend or acr backend break.
At Arm II at times I'm having trouble getting my ball through the mids unless I'm real deep with the Horizon and when they break down, that ball even breaks too soon (I feel because of it's low rg) and have to more left. But I don't put the kind a hand in the ball to get it back and carry consistently when I'm that deep. So I'm feeling that a ball with a medium rg will help me and having a tamer coverstock will help me to keep my feet further right on the approach. But I want a fairly strong backend for hitting and carry power. I feel that kind of reaction will work best for me at Arm II.
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Post by XBOM on Nov 29, 2006 17:06:18 GMT -5
Perfect I think what screwed is trying to say in a NICE way is to stop throwing the ball like a pu$$y when you move in deeper and start trying to swing the lane #nutkick# when standing 25 playing 12 you can fluff the ball down the lane and get the ball to hit. But when having to stand 10 to 15 boards deeper and playing a line 5 to 10 boards deeper "BUT" having to play the same "BREAK POINT" because of carrydown your miilder cover balls will not have the finishing power to cover so many boards. If the heads breakdown at 10- 15 for example the heads will hook in this area even throwing plastic. You have to move in DEEPER with your feet and your mark to find oil. So you get a more aggressive ball and boom the lane. But even if you do this you can't "FLUFF" the ball and expect the same hit even though the ball is designed to recover from this angle. Got to get ready for work c yall later
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